Why Becoming a CCIE Doesn’t Fix Being Inexperienced

One of the challenges future network rock stars face is that they don’t know what they don’t know. This is a cold, unyielding fact. Certifications get a person down the road a good distance, but ultimately, there’s no teacher like experience. I don’t mean this to be discouraging for those trying to break into the networking business, but I do want to point out that many seem to see the CCIE in particular as a path to cherubim announcing their entrance into the data center, rack doors opening via Jedi hand waves, and of course, piles of gold.

Here’s the thing. I don’t care  if you nailed the lab on your first attempt. If you’ve done little or no real world networking, then all you’ve learned so far is a lot of technical details explaining how to accomplish a set of tasks. While passing that wretched lab exam certainly places you in some elite company, you learned very little about how networks are designed, implemented, and maintained in production environments. In other words, you don’t know why certain things are done. Or just as importantly, not done.

When I evaluate resumes, I don’t look at certifications first. I look for experience first. I see what a person says they have been doing, what their responsibilities were, and what their role was in their previous jobs. If they also have a certification or three, that’s great, as it tells me that this person is very possibly driven and committed to their chosen field of expertise. After that, I ferret out just how much lying they did on their resume by asking them a series of probing, involved questions that take me as deeply as they are capable of taking me about things they claim to know. Some do well. Yes, they really were responsible for a massive OSPF redesign. Some do badly. No, they really weren’t responsible for a multi-thousand node network, because their network was outsourced as a managed service. If a person is certified, I’ll ask them how long it’s been, what they thought of the testing process, what other certs they are interested in, etc. But the certification has not been the deciding factor for most of the positions I’ve hired people into.

What good are certifications, then? In my opinion, certifications are good for getting started – for getting your foot in the door. I’ll take an enthusiastic neophyte with a cert who has a decent knowledge base and a realistic attitude for the right position. That position is not going to be “running the show,” however. Certifications are also good for moving up. Once I got going in my IT career, I kept up with certs as a way to help me climb the responsibility ladder. However, as I’ve continued on in my career, it’s not been about the certifications as much as the experience that’s helped move me on and caused companies to want to retain me and/or stick me in a management role. No one put any pressure on me to earn the CCIE designation, for example. That was a personal quest. I earned no extra money for earning and subsequently holding onto that certification.

While an admirable (and attainable) goal, in my opinion, going after the CCIE while in or just after college isn’t the right way to think about building a networking career. Some have done it. Others will do it. I know. I get that. Just keep in mind that it’s the time in the trenches designing around difficult problems, resolving failures, and learning why things happen the way they do that will make you a solid performer year after year. Once you know “why”, you’ll find that “how” matters a bit less.

About Ethan Banks

Ethan Banks, CCIE #20655, is a hands-on networking practitioner who has designed, built and maintained networks for higher education, state government, financial institutions, and technology corporations. Ethan is a host of the Packet Pushers Podcast, which has seen over one million unique downloads, and today reaches a global audience of over ten thousand listeners. Also a writer, Ethan covers network engineering and the networking industry for a variety of IT publications. He is also the editor for the independent community of bloggers at PacketPushers.net. Follow @ecbanks.

  • Alexandra Stanovska

    I see where you’re going. There are some cases or just different parts of world where it works slightly different though. Big company as an example: getting cert (any level) is difference between “we cannot give you desired role now plus we cannot give you more than 8% this year because that’s how company rules are” and simply being able to apply for same/better/different/more-rewarding job* with where cert is listed as prerequisite… just in another big company. While doubling the income. Rinse, repeat every few years ;-) At least that’s how it works here.

    *Delete as appropriate

    I think I heard in one of PacketPushers episode something to the meaning of “I have CCIE now, I can finally start learning”. Very true. (I don’t study for CCIE but I too want to get rid of current exam’s topics just to move onto something I long for.)

    • Big Evil

      I have never met a CCIE yet who just because he/she has the number thinks that they are able exhibit various powers that rely on the Force - nor do i believe that just because someone has a CCIE they should be considered the master of networking. As most CCIE’s have told me – once you get your number that is when the learning really starts. Getting the CCIE, if done the correct way (enough said here) will indeed open many doors and make your phone ring more.

      Do i see the CCIE as the end of my network journey? No – it is part of the path and just one piece of the puzzle.

      Good article Ethan – thanks.

      BE.

      • http://packetpushers.net/author/ecbanks Ethan Banks

        I totally agree with the notion of “that’s where the learning really starts.” The CCIE program was an introduction into just how much I still don’t know, as well as just how easy it is to forget the details.

        • JayL

          I agree with all of your points. CCIE is just like a college degree.  Having a college degree doesn’t necessarily mean good engineer or good worker. Not to discount the value of college degree here. Having college degree  proves that person has a patience and has ability to learn. Similarly having CCIE means that person has patience and willingness to work hard to achieve goal.  Another thing is CCIE grants you a benefit of doubt.  If two equally experienced person say two different things – one who has ccie and one does not have ccie, people usually tend to side with opinion with ccie.  

          The bigger question we need to ask is what makes network engineer a good network engineer. Based on my experience here is what I think are the qualities of good network engineer:- A good honest person. Someone who does his work honestly and diligently. Doesn’t look for someone else to blame. Do his share of his responsibility. Offer his service to colleagues/customers etc. Unfortunately I do not think this quality is teachable.- Communication is very important.  A good network engineer must have good communication skill. It is skill you use to convince your colleagues/management etc. Got to speak well. Got to write well. Got to visio well. -Has an ability to script. Example -In fair amount of time one can write script to convert configuration from one platform to another. Write script to parse the logs  to glean right information.-Has always keens sense of learning new things. Natural curiosity towards technology.-Has decent skills on packet analysis.-Ability to do research. Someone who has ability to get resources needed to get job done.-Having experience alone doesn’t make one a good engineer. Learning from experience is key. I have seen in my career seasoned  professionals making some mistake again and again. Experience is important but if you do not learn from experience- then it is no good.Thanks

  • Matthew Mengel

    I’m sitting in a hotel room in Sydney 16 hours away from my first attempt at the CCIE R&S Lab.  Seventeen years of experience certainly gave me decent a base from which to launch.  :)   To be honest, I could have stayed in my position at the University forever without the certifications, but on the flip side, the certification would have given me no benefits with regard to seniority or promotion.  However, as I move into the job market, I can see how the CCIE cert can open some doors that even a lot of experience seems to not open.

    Right now I am hoping the Lab will give me a benchmark of where I am as opposed to where I think I am.  Pass or not pass, I think it will be valuable in that respect.

    Thanks Ethan for giving me something to think about before an undoubtedly fitful night sleep.

  • http://twitter.com/pandom_ Anthony Burke

    As an almost CCNP engineer with aspirations for the CCIE this post rings home true. It more than just hits home, It stomps around like a rhino in a ming vase shop.

    Experience is something that I crave on a daily basis and more important to me that study itself. Opportunities arise and I pounce on them. It may be the same deployment as Company Y but I look for ways to better my approach, How I could possible do it better or factor in the best way to do it to achieve my objectives.

    In a company where variety and different opportunities are scarce, I find that having the goal for the IE will help give me an edge if I choose to look elsewhere. Though I feel the thing that separates myself from others who see IE as the key and map to the secret treasure, is the fact that I believe you never stop learning. The NP is a stepping stone. The IE is the stand out point to let others know that this person has characteristics of entering network rock-star-dom. Actually learning, notching up EXPERIENCE, not just certs, on your belt is what divides network architects and network rock-stars.
    The IE alone is not what Rock-stars are made of. Experience is.

    P.S – Good luck Matthew.

  • http://twitter.com/Vegaskid1973 Matt Thompson

    Interesting article Ethan. When I started off in IT many years ago, I was a Microsoft engineer and used certification to give myself something to differentiate myself from colleaguescandidates who did not.

    Two years ago, I gained my CCNA and in the last six months decided to make the move across to full time networking. My focus on certifcation has shifted considerably with that move as I now primarily use certification to personally baseline my knowledge on the topics.

    With that in mind, I decided to recertify my CCNA before moving on to the CCNP rather than having a 642 exam recertify it. For me, its a great way of ticking off understanding of topics and doing it this way helped me confirm that my foundation was solid enough to move up to the Professional track.

    All said and done, you can’t beat experience for learning the details. Over the years, hands on experience has taught me a huge amount that I would not pick up in any text book.

    I think the key is find a way to marry both ways of learning. Strict, by the book (literally!), topic by topic learning using books, videos, t’internet and labs (god bless GNS3) and let the day to day role (or night by night when it’s busy) compliment this by filling in the gaps.

  • http://phasedcoexistence.blogspot.com/ Scott Stapleton

    CCIEs aren’t what they used to be. The number of very young guys with CCIEs with little experience, the amount of cheating that has occurred in India and China in the last few years and the amount of guys who ligitimately pass yet still seem to have little clue is making it increasingly ‘meh’.

    The CCIE needs to go down the CWNE path where you actually need verified experience to gain the cert but of course Cisco could care less.

    • http://packetpushers.net/author/ecbanks Ethan Banks

      I believe Cisco does care about the integrity of the CCIE certification, but thwarting cheaters while still making the test globally accessible is challenging. Open ended questions have been pulled out because of the push back from the community, for example. Have a listen to the interview I did with Natalie Timms where she talks about this at some length (show 67).

      As I understand it, Cisco is also fighting a battle where there’s a dearth of people certified at the expert level. There’s just not as many people worldwide to meet their workload as they would like. A few years back, my memory recalls that Cisco had a goal to have 30,000 active CCIEs. They’re not close to that. Some CCIEs are not recertifying. Not as many new CCIEs are minted as maybe Cisco would like, and at least a few of those who are certifying didn’t earn the title, as so are still incapable of functioning as an expert.

      What’s Cisco to do? It’s a delicate balance for them, and I tend to sympathize with them more than demean them. I don’t personally believe Cisco is using the CCIE program to make significant money. While I’m sure they make a little, it’s fractions of a percent of their global overall sales – not enough to be significant. They make far more money on engineers in the field who are expert-certified, designing Cisco-branded networks, supporting Cisco gear effectively, and waving the Cisco flag.

      All that said, I’m not sure I disagree with the notion that Cisco should make experience a prerequisite for entrance into the CCIE program. But I think the larger issue is that Cisco has one agenda for the CCIE program, while we engineers have a rather different agenda. Cisco sees CCIEs as people who will probably remain loyal to the Cisco brand and who will keep Cisco networks running effectively, thus also bolstering corporate loyalty to the brand. We engineers see the CCIE program as a way to set ourselves apart from the pack – to demonstrate we’re extremely capable, more so than the average bear. So if Cisco makes the certification harder to achieve, that works against Cisco’s goals, but for ours. At least, that’s how I see it.

    • Alexandra Stanovska

      There’s experience and experience. A guy who just obtained CCIE in his low twenties while managing some local campus part-time or hacking school’s network can have much grater potential than other guy who’d been granted senior network engineer position just because he’s been with company for 10 years essentially doing same type of job = knows company processes and tools = he has to be experienced, right? (while arguing with you that it’s not possible associating routers with VLANs because VLANs are on switches only, true story). I work specialized role in relatively niche market like tier1 service providers for 5 years, yet I feel ashamed by the guy who’d been with local VAR for half that time and barely renews his CCNA. Because of the sheer spectrum of things he comes in touch and scenarios he solves for customers. Who in Cisco is going to decide what’s appropriate experience before letting you for exam? Are they going to verify your claims like employers do background checks for job candidates? I doubt that to be honest. Also there’s no prerequisite for CCIE, and I think Cisco must have reasoning behind this as well.

      Cheating is whole different story though. As long as any cert is ticket for getting substantial amount of money for decent living (mainly in popular offshoring destinations) it’s very hard to wipe it out. There’s whole market evolved around this. Then it’s up to employer (fortunately) or real hard work (not so fortunate) to weed out inappropriate candidates.

  • John McGrath

    As someone who is thinking of studying for the CCNA, does expirence help in the study process?

    I currently work in Hardware support, not networking, where my expirence with the network side is limited to the hardware I support.  I would like to branch into full network support roles, but my current expirence does not show enough networking to move into a position.  

    • Phillip Anselmo

      yes and no. it really depends on the type of network you come in contact with. the CCNA is a very broad stroke of technologies, some of which you may not see (Frame Relay, WAN connections, and such)

      but day to day work on switches really helps out nonetheless.

  • http://twitter.com/pwohlers Peter Wohlers

    At least for me, certs may get you the interview, but experience, or sometimes just raw aptitude and curiosity attract me to a candidate. The certs may give a base level of understanding of the landscape but only in two dimensions. Sometimes troubleshooting or implementation requires an olfactory component that just can’t be encapsulated in training.

    • CHINTAN

      RIGHT

  • shivlu jain

    agree with you….Its easy to be CCIE but difficult to be good CCIE….experience makes good CCIE….

    regards
    Shivlu Jain

  • Anon

    when I get my CCIE # all my friends finally told me “this is the last certification right?” as they were bored not to see me since 1.5 years.
    My answer has always been “this instead is the first certification of the difficult ones”
    :-D

    • http://packetpushers.net/author/ecbanks Ethan Banks

      Yep. I admit to wanting to certify on another CCIE track, but have yet to fully commit mentally. I have a network I’m going to spend the next year adding complex services to, so I don’t think I can do another track until I get that environment in a “run and maintain” mode.

  • http://twitter.com/ccie25655 Chris Jones

    I’ve always said that the CCIE simply means I can configure a Cisco router given a strict set of criteria – and nothing more. The CCIE does not test the ability to define that criteria, nor necessarily the best way to configure it.

  • David James

    Greg, I have always enjoyed you on the Packet Pushers podcasts and I would like to give my “two bytes” worth of personal opinion on certification and moving up in the IT field.  I agree that certs are really just a starting point.  I like most people in the IT field got my start in the mid 90′s when if you could just spell MCSE or CCNA you could land a job. Alas I lot has changed and for the better.  I remember jumping on the cert bus and chasing after my MCSE then CCNA and even worked up to the CCSP.  Unfortunately, my career progression did not follow my certification progress.  As a network admin I have to know not only networking skills to include all things Cisco, but other vendors such as VMware, etc and of course we can never get away from Microsoft and the users that it affects.  As I have began to realize that in the IT field if you want to move up you have to move out I am seeing over and over again in my job market (Charlotte,NC) that specialization is the name of the game.  Network jobs are sort of like basball teams where you have the minor leagues and farm teams all the way up to the professional leagues.  Moving from the minors to the majors can be quite an accomplishment.  In fact I have had more than one recruiter tell me that my skills, while quite impressive, were simply to broad and that  employers are looking for specialization.  I would tell anyone in this market to focus on a certain discipline and become an expert on it.  Also if your present position finds you not keeping up with the current trends but becoming more of a maintainer of the network then it may be time to move on.  IT is about growing in your career, your learning and training, and the people you work with.

  • tuken

    I do agree, but what in case when no one is ready to give you a job. For eg. when i passed my CCNA in 2009, i looked for job afterwards, but no-one was interested in me because i hadn’t had any experience. The first thing the interviewer used to say was we are looking for atleast an year of experience.
    I had to move forward and I started studying for CCIE, and took the path CCNP>CCIP>CCIE(RS) and the lab is close, but no experience. I very much understand that the lab environment is considerably different from real life one, but like a  situation i mentioned, there’s no other alternative, thats why there are inexperienced CCIEs.
    Now, if I pass/fail the exam, I will have to work on relatively low money, and thats okay, atleast with me.

  • Sepiraph

    IMHO another problem with the CCIE program is that it is not keeping up with some of the new technologies, for example network virtualization and even Cisco’s own UCS.  Maybe it wasn’t as much as an issue back then but I feel that the rate of progress in the networking world is increasing.

  • Ian Bowers

    Experience teaches one of the most humbling proficiencies in the industry, “what you don’t know”.  Knowing what you do know is great and all, but being aware of what you don’t know is arguably the most important complimentary bodies of knowledge.  Knowing when to ask questions or google-tech the answer instead of clawing away furiously at a problem you are completely unaware you simply don’t have the proficiency to see through.  Knowing what to study next, what holes to fill in, etc.  Getting a CCIE early is a race to acquire certain knowledge sets, but one ends up not knowing what holes are in those knowledge sets, how they relate to what thjey DO know, and most importantly how to fill in the gaps.

    I talk a lot with my peers about my lab at home, and how it’s my “production network” at the same time.  I do this to build experience in ways I might not get to at the workplace. I have every LAN and Security technology I can get my hands on deployed in a methodical way on my home network.  One purpose for this is that it has to work for me to use the internet.  This is a big motivation for a pro nerd returning home from work.  I need my internets.  So if there are any problems on the network, I have to fix it.  I can’t let it sit for a week like a typical lab scenario.  I’ve also found “human” traffic makes for much more real-to-life failures than any lab scenario.  Over the years I’ve ended up with countless scenarios I’d never seen before, and eventually fixed with some amount of effort.  The net result of all this is the single best reaction one can have to a problem at work when everyone else is scratching their heads.  It’s the “I’ve totally seen this issue before, here’s how I fixed it” reaction.  No amount of study or certification can give you that magic bullet.  Slowly over time you’ll find yourself saying it more and more often.  That’s the ninja inside you growing and becoming stronger.

  • Antonio P

    You can save some years experience when you are doing interview, if you have CCIE. But It is not everything technical knowledge, there are a lot of skills you are not getting with CCIE. The best network engineer what i know, he doesn’t have CCIE, he doesn’t have CCNA.
     Sorry for my english.

  • Anonymous

    In many ways I find myself more impressed with those folks who pass the CCIE after have years of experience under their belt as it almost requires them to “unlearn” many of the good habits they have gained.

     I have about 20 years in the industry and when I took the R&S lab this past summer without going through any of the boot camps or other formal training, just my experience and many, many hours of self study, I realized something. It is as important to understand how to take this test as it is to know what is on it. I never ran into any material I did not at some level already know, but I could not get past not being able to use my time tested methods for approaching networking. I could not give up on something and move on if I could not get it in five to ten minutes. I could not configure something that I know in the real world would be inefficient or even wrong.

     Yet, time and again I found myself in the same situation on this exam. Suffice it to say I did not pass. I will most likely not be taking it again as I cannot afford the training that seems necessary to prepare for how to take this test. 

    But thank you for sharing this, especially as it comes from someone who has been there and has the knowledge and experience.

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  • Xxx

    heres the thing – ccie’s dont care what louse bloger has to say about value of CCIe.
    This is probably most useless post i’ve read this year – and that from ethan, whos career is so great that he’s running blog rather then supporting real networks.
    i think ethan you most likely dumper based on how you underestimate CCIE value in networking world.